The relationship between Jonathan Karl and Donald Trump has been a rocky one over the past 25 years. But it appears that deep down, the chief White House correspondent for ABC News and the business tycoon-turned-nation’s 45th president not only get each other, they also share a mutual respect.
The veteran journalist has now written “Front Row at the Trump Show,’’ an engaging account of his ups and downs with the commander-in-chief who has alternately praised him as a brilliant newsman and as an “enemy of the people.’’
Newsmax recently sat down with the 52-year-old Karl — winner of the 2013 Walter Cronkite Award for National Individual Achievement and president of the White House Correspondents' Association — to get the dish on Trump’s often-turbulent relationship with the Fourth Estate.
Newsmax: You first met Donald Trump in 1994 when you covered Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley’s honeymoon in Trump Tower, and he gave you a personal tour. What was your first impression of him?
Jonathan Karl: It was "What a showman!" I was blown away by how friendly he was. I was a nobody reporter, I’d been working at the New York Post for six months or something and he was this big, larger-than-life figure.
He brought me in, pumped me up and frankly it was a blast.
Newsmax: Did his tour make you want to live in Trump Tower?
Karl: (laughs) It did not. It was not quite my style. A little too much gold, a little too bright and shiny. But it was fun.
Newsmax: You describe calling Donald Trump now and then over the years for a colorful quote. Did you consider him a good source?
Karl: I considered him a good source. He was almost always responsive. You could call his secretary Norma Foerderer and almost without fail Trump would get back, and get back quickly, and he was willing to play along.
Newsmax: In the book, you half-jokingly refer to Trump as "America’s greatest egomaniac." Is that true?
Karl: (laughs) I think it probably is true! Especially in this business, in terms of the people we cover and some of our colleagues, you meet a lot of people with very large egos. But Trump is in a league of his own.
Newsmax: You also say, "‘the 2016 campaign turned upside down just about everything I thought knew about politics." How so?
Karl: The idea that somebody could come in from the outside with no political experience and a history of proposing massive tax increases which he did. He proposed back in 1999, when he was thinking about of running for the Reform Party nomination for president, a wealth tax that is far beyond anything Elizabeth Warren could ever dream of. It would have been the largest tax increase in the history of mankind. And I had always assumed that if you proposed any kind of tax increase, you were basically dead on arrival as a Republican candidate for president. Also, you have the notion that the candidates with the best organization, with the most money, would have the overwhelming advantage going into a primary battle. Trump had no organization and his campaign spent almost no money compared to Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio and the others. All those things we assumed about what it took to be a successful presidential candidate turned out not to be true, at least in this case.
Newsmax: What would you say has been the Trump administration’s crowning achievement so far?
Karl: If we were talking before this [coronavirus] crisis hit, I would say it was the economy. But now you look at a situation with unemployment about to hit, a record job loss, and the stock market, which he loves to talk about, having erased virtually all of its gains since he was elected president. It’s hard to say the economy is the crowning achievement at this point. I don’t know if this is an achievement, but the one thing he has managed to do is completely solidify the support of his party, beyond what Barack Obama was able to with Democrats and certainly beyond what George Bush was able to do with Republicans. He has virtually total control over the Republican Party. With presidents, there’s always a faction of their party that they’re fighting with or is problematic, and Trump has erased all that opposition within the Republican Party.
Newsmax: At one point, you were branded an "enemy of the people" by Trump after he previously praised you as "the great Jonathan Karl of ABC News." How did that make you feel?
Karl: It was really disturbing to see him brand the free press, basically, as an ‘enemy of the people.’ It was jarring especially because I know how much he actually engages with the press and how he knows reporters, editors and publishers and follows the news closer than any of his predecessors. But he was using a phrase that is associated with Stalin, with the reign of terror in the French Revolution, and even Hitler used in his rise to power in Nazi Germany. So I found it deeply, deeply disturbing.
Newsmax: You talk about how even when a reporter is treated unfairly, they have to remain fair in their coverage. Do you think that’s been the case with the Washington press corps?
Karl: I think the Washington press corps has sometimes fallen into the trap of appearing to be the opposition party, just as Trump has labeled us. The coverage is often relentlessly negative and critical of Trump, and often deservedly so. But the problem is you can turn on cable news and every moment of the day can seem to be filled with outrage at whatever the latest thing Donald Trump has done. But that is not the only story in town.
Newsmax: Trump has a core group of supporters who love him through thick and thin. Do they still love him as the 2020 election gets closer?
Karl: Perhaps one of the truest things he said during the campaign was that he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue [and wouldn’t lose any voters]. I think he will have a very loyal corps that will support him right through the 2020 election. It’s really quite remarkable how loyal those people are to Trump. Even if they don’t agree with everything he says or everything he does, they have a tremendous loyalty to the man.
Newsmax: What do you think of Trump’s use of nicknames such as "Lyin’ Ted" and "Sleepy Joe"? Does he have one for you?
Karl: He is a genius brander. That is true. The nicknames don’t always stick, but a remarkable number of them do. He’s had a few different ones for me. Most recently it was "cutie pie," "wise guy," "lightweight reporter." There’ve been a variety. "The great Jonathan Karl,' that’s my favorite one.
Newsmax: Many Republicans despised Trump during the 2016 campaign and now they are 100 percent behind him, even though he horribly insulted people like Sens. Lindsay Graham, John McCain and Ted Cruz. Is it because he is so good at changing their minds or do they just want to keep the GOP in power?
Karl: There are few things going on. One is that Trump is so incredibly popular with their base as well. Trump, as you know, can be incredibly charming. He flatters you, he praises you and he pumps you up — until he doesn’t, until he turns on you. But I think he’s done a tremendous job of doing that with Republicans in Washington. He really pumps them up on a personal level. He calls them, he engages them. I think this is one of the things he has done much more effectively than his predecessors — to engage, be in touch with members of Congress. It’s almost exclusively Republicans, with very are exceptions. He is on the phone with rank and file Republican members. Obama never did that with rank and file Democrats in Congress and Bush certainly didn’t do it with rank and file Republicans. And they have rewarded him with near total loyalty. One other factor is he’s actually gotten a lot of things done that Republicans have long wanted to get done. The confirmation of all those judges — district court judges, circuit court judges, two Supreme Court judges. He got through the tax cut they’ve been wanting for so long, he’s cut regulations. He has accomplished a lot of the things have Republicans, that conservatives, have wanted to accomplish and he’s done it in a way that’s gone beyond what previous Republican presidents were able to do.
Newsmax: Trump has an odd relationship with The New York Times. Sometimes he’s ripping it apart as a "failing" newspaper and going after its White House correspondent Maggie Haberman. Other times he seems to fawn over the newspaper. What gives?
Karl: I think the president cares about how he is portrayed in The New York Times more than he cares about any other media outlet. I have heard him on multiple occasions marvel at the fact that he is often on The New York Times front page in multiple stories — ‘Four stories, one day, the front page of The New York Times! My whole time maybe it was once or twice before I got into politics. Now look at this!’ — He loves it, even if the stories are negative, he loves to see his name in print on the front page of The New York Times because he knows how important that newspaper is and he reads that newspaper. He calls it ‘failing New York Times,’ but I’ve also heard him publicly and privately say, ‘Actually, the Times is doing very well right now and they’re doing well because of me.’ I remember at one point about two years ago he predicted the Times would endorse him — I think he was joking — because once he’s gone what are they going to do? They’re going to go right back down. And Maggie Haberman is a great reporter, one of the true great reporters of the Trump era. He knows that and he respects her and he talks to her and then he also can’t help himself but to insult her, over and over again. But nobody knows better than Donald Trump how good a reporter Maggie Haberman is.
Newsmax: Do you think Trump secretly likes the way he’s portrayed by Emmy- and Golden Globe-winning actor Alec Baldwin on "Saturday Night Live" or does he really hate it?
Karl: I think the Alec Baldwin portrayal truly annoys Donald Trump.
Newsmax: Trump hosted "Saturday Night Live" years ago. Do you think he might host it again after he becomes a private citizen?
Karl: If "Saturday Night Live" offered him the opportunity to host again, I have no doubt that Trump would jump at the opportunity. He loves hosting "Saturday Night Live." He had a great time doing it. I don’t necessarily know if they would invite him back, but if they did he definitely would do it.
Newsmax: What will Trump do after he leaves the White House?
Karl: Trump will love going back to an elevated version of his old life. We’ve seen previous presidents, especially Obama and Bush, effectively try to disappear from public life after they leave the White House. I don’t think Donald Trump will do that. He will still want the spotlight and he’ll be able to get the spotlight, but he’ll do it from the comforts of Trump Tower and Mar-a-Lago.
“Front Row at the Trump Show’’ by Jonathan Karl is published by Dutton.
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